Managing Complex Parent-Child Relationships with Karen Shepard === Season Four Kickoff --- Candace Dellacona: Hey, survivors. Welcome to the first episode of season four of The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide, a milestone made possible by the incredible response this show has received and the growing community of listeners who've shared their stories, feedback, and resilience along the way. As the podcast has taken me across the country, I've met so many survivors in the sandwich generation, people balancing caregiving, parenting, work, and everything in between. And this fourth season is about continuing to amplify those voices and experiences, provide you with resources, and most of all, remind you that you are not alone. Today's episode is for anyone trying to be a good daughter to a difficult parent, and for those who know that love, caregiving, guilt, and complicated family dynamics can exist all at once. Season four, here we go Meet Karen Shepard --- Candace Dellacona: Welcome to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide. I am your host, Candace Dellacona. Today's guest is Karen Shepard. Karen is an acclaimed author and a professor at Williams College, whose work often explores the complexities of relationships and morality, the human condition, which we're gonna get into today. Karen's also the author of four novels. She's been published in "The Atlantic Monthly," "The Paris Review," "USA Today," "Boston Globe," among others. Her recent essay, though, "The World is an Easier Place Without You In It," is a deeply honest and what I would call an unflinching account of her relationship with her mom, and the extraordinary experience that Karen shared with her mother, accompanying her to Switzerland when her mother decided to end her life. Our conversation today is gonna be about love and autonomy and dignity and some, I would say, uncomfortable truths that Karen has so graciously agreed to talk to us about today. So Karen, after that long intro, thank you so much for being here. Karen Shepard: Thank you for having me. It's lovely to be able to chat with you about all this. Candace Dellacona: Yeah, I'm really excited. Karen, for full disclosure for our listeners you and I know each other. I knew your mom, and so I'm a bit familiar with her story, which, I find so interesting and inspiring and difficult in so many ways. So I'm really happy that you've agreed to let the rest of us in, and I kinda wanna just jump into it if that's okay with you. Okay. Why Tell It This Way --- Candace Dellacona: So the essay about your mom stayed with me for a really long time after I read it. It was very raw, but it was also quite structured in such an intentional way, which obviously is a kudos to your writing abilities. Karen Shepard: Thank you. Candace Dellacona: What made you decide to tell the story about the end of your mom's life, and a bit leading up to it as it relates to your relationship through your emails, as opposed to like the traditional narrative maybe that most writers would use? Karen Shepard: Yeah. Primary Documents Approach --- Karen Shepard: It's the essay, as you say, is all primary documents. There are emails between me and my mom. There are emails between me and the clinic where she went in Switzerland for assisted death. There are voice memo transcripts. There are voicemail message transcripts. There are text message threads between me and my family, my kids and husband. And then there's some older stuff like a children's story that my mom wrote when she was a kid or notes that she wrote and didn't send, notes that I wrote to her when I was a kid. One of the reasons was because she had a very distinct voice as a person. She was a big presence in a room. And so some of that decision to use primary documents was to honor that and get her on the page in a way that filtering her through my more traditional recollections might not have done. The other was to let herself hang herself with her own words. She was a difficult person to be a daughter of, and I think some of her language makes that clear in a way that might have seemed unfair if I had represented her that way. The other was she was a wannabe writer, and so she had a lot of paperwork. And the summer before she died, my daughter and I had gone to her apartment in the city and picked up all this stuff her files and her photos and her journals. And I have, I have loads of it right behind me. Some of it was just going through that after she died and realizing even more than I knew already that she was very capable of deep emotional perception and intelligence, and also incapable of using that fully when it came to me. So I think I was trying to give the reader a small mirror experience of what it was like for me to encounter her when you, the reader, encountered the two of us. Candace Dellacona: I think that was a brilliant way to frame it because that's exactly what certainly myself as a reader felt, where I really heard her voice and witnessed sort of your navigation of this complex relationship. It also was a window into the love that you both had for each other, regardless of how complicated the relationship was. So do you think that the format using the, these sources and her writings, did it give you an emotional distance as an observer? Karen Shepard: Yeah. I'm deeply skeptical on some levels about memoir, even though I'm writing it. And the reason I'm skeptical is because too often I think memoir becomes a way to present yourself as a well-intentioned, well-meaning person that the world threw something difficult at, and I managed it really well. And so I wanted to be as rare as and honest about my own position as I am with her. But I think there's something a little bit bloodless about the primary documents, and so I don't think the whole book that I'm working on could be that. But I think it was also difficult not to get carried away by how hard it was to be her daughter, and in an emotional, sense of the term carried away. So this was a way for me to be able to see it from a little bit outside and inside at the same time. End of Life Shift --- Candace Dellacona: Yeah, and you know what's so interesting about the essay is that in many ways, there's attention paid towards what happened at the end of her life and how her life ended. But obviously the dynamics and the sort of evolution of the dynamics happened decades before and progressed over time. Do you think that the complicated dynamics that you shared with your mom and your relationship became more pronounced at the end of her life? Or do you think that what we saw in these exchanges was like par for the course? Karen Shepard: Yeah, that's a great question. I think that if she had decided to go to Switzerland even two years or three years before she did, I might not have gone with her. We weren't talking a couple years before she died, which was par for the course in and out. But I was in a position to be able to offer her the kind of help that she was in a position to be asking for. And I think we got a last few months of her life that we both felt really grateful to have, and that was not at all a given what our relationship had been like. And one of the things that really helped me was there's this book that somebody recommended about caring for elderly parents who have been difficult in your life. And one of the things that book says is each decision you make as the child of a difficult parent, at the end of their life is really up to you. Like they've already broken the contract of what it means to be a parent, so you don't owe them anything. So I would spend a lot of time prior to two years ago going, "Oh my God, what's gonna happen when mom is sick and needs help? Because she's such a difficult person, and I don't know if I wanna help her, but oh my God, she's my mom. I owe her that." So I think I was in a position where I was making decisions to help her based on what fed me as maybe as selfish as that sounds. And because she had made a very in control, dignified, decision, she was in a position to receive that help, which was not always the case for her. So we were easier with each other in the last few months than probably we had ever been in our lives. Candace Dellacona: It's remarkable if you think about it, because you're faced with this incredibly difficult decision, and that is when your relationship became, quote-unquote, "easier," which is, really something. And I think the way that you put it is so important that, you found it in yourself to be what you perceived as a good daughter, it sounds like, and to paraphrase what you've said, regardless of what her behavior was prior to that. You just decided to show up as Karen in the way that you felt comfortable acting, regardless of how it was being received. Karen Shepard: Right. Little Karen Big Karen --- Karen Shepard: And I think for that to happen, I had to get better at distinguishing between what little Karen wanted and needed and what big Karen wanted and needed. 'Cause if little Karen had shown up driving the bus, it would've really mattered what mom could have given me, and 'cause a four-year-old needs different things than a 60-year-old. And I think it was really my lifetime of figuring out how to get that little person out of the driver's seat. And so I was in a position to be able to do that. But I think it was also because it was temporary. Once she made the decision to go to Switzerland, and once we had a date, we had a few months, and we both knew that this was not something we had to negotiate forever. And that relieved us of some pressure. Candace Dellacona: I remember talking to you during that time period, and we were both sort of like, "We wonder if it's going to actually happen." So that was a very real sort of emotion that you were dealing with too, like will there be an end? But, so you point out the difference between being a daughter like thinking about that sweet note that you included in your essay, in your handwriting to your mom wanting her to love you, sharing your love with her, and then, the daughter you were at 60. But at what point did things shift again for you? Because the way that I also viewed your relationship with her is, somewhat of a partner in this decision, not to make the decision for her, but once she made the decision, you were her partner to get things done. Planning Switzerland --- Karen Shepard: So she had been interested in assisted death for a few years, and she had first raised it a couple years ago, or a couple years before her death. And I had presented her, I had looked into it, and I had presented her with what she needed to do, like an online application and a deposit, and here's what you did. And she kind of pooh-poohed it and said, "Oh my God, too many hoops. I'll just kill myself." And, we talked very openly at the time about what that would mean in America. That would not be a sure thing. She would be trading ease maybe in terms of money and time and effort with dignity and with guarantees about outcome. The thought that she might end up worse off than she was, and also that I might end up legally on the hook about this was something we had talked about. So that went away as a kind of plan. But what I had said to her at the time, and what I continued to say to her was, "Whatever you decide, I will help you with." So when we weren't sure, given that she had changed her mind before about it, at the end of her life when she was like, "I'm going to Switzerland," and she applied and we had a date, you can change your mind up until right there in Switzerland if you want. So we were doing, as this sort of two-pronged attack of let's make a plan for Switzerland and let's make a plan for going home. We had elder caregivers lined up, and we had an apartment evaluation about how safe her place was. And we had also made plane tickets to Switzerland. And I think it would've been very complicated emotionally if she had decided to stay because she would have been basically bedridden in a very small apartment. She did not wanna move anywhere, and she was very unhappy. And so as opposed to somebody who was a big control freak her whole life and who wanted to be in control of how she went out, and you were telling her, "You can do that. You can be in control of that." So yeah by the end of things, I was basically saying "Let's do everything you wanna do," Candace Dellacona: yeah. That was a big issue, right? Because, as sandwich generation members and as the daughter and you trying to make sure that she was... That regardless of what decision she made, she'd be okay, that was one of the friction points of, behavior and picking a path, Karen Shepard: Yeah. Candace Dellacona: I think being an observer during that time too and watching you, again, navigate the complexity of a challenging relationship for a lifetime and wanting to honor whatever decision she was making, it's so hard not to think about, you as a parent and your own kids. Breaking Parenting Patterns --- Candace Dellacona: While you were going through all of this with respect to your mom and trying to empower her, if you will, to get to the point where she was able to make the decision and kind of stick to it, did you think about how it would look for your own kids one day and how it would be different in terms of forget the, assisted death? Karen Shepard: Yeah. Probably I've thought about that since becoming a mother and probably before that. I think if you grow up with a mother like Candace Dellacona: Yeah. Karen Shepard: you're spending a lot of time going You know, you're grateful for the ways in which she contributed to who I became, but you don't want to be a mother like she was a mother. And so much of my mothering to my three kids has been not so much predicated on her negative example, that would be the easiest way to look at it but but taking the positives about who I am becau- I'm independent and resilient because of her. And so you want, I want my kids to be independent and resilient, but I don't want them to get there by taking the public bus to school when they were five by themselves or, by having to pay for their own phone lines when they were 10 or, so some of the goals are the same, I think. But I think I, I was all about breaking patterns even before I got to end of life stuff with her. And I think that was difficult for mom because I think she wanted to have a relationship with my kids where they got to kvetch about me, and my kids wouldn't do that with her. And so I think that was frustrating for her. She wasn't able to triangulate with them because they were better at resisting triangulation than I was. So the pride that I have in myself and in my kids is really one of the best things about all of this, is that I feel really confident that I broke a lot of patterns when it comes to parenting. Candace Dellacona: Yeah, for sure he did. And I think the reason why your kids were not willing participants is because they learned the opposite from their parents, right? And it was a pattern you had to break and a pattern they never saw. Which is really beautiful when you think about it. Defining Good Daughter --- Candace Dellacona: And, that sort of like bleeds into the concept of, being a good daughter, even being a good daughter to somebody who had their five-year-old taking the city bus, or that would be acceptable. As you think of what the societal pressure is about being a good daughter, how do you think other listeners can navigate when their parent doesn't align with what a good parent is or those societal expectations? What advice do you have, having made it through to the other side? Karen Shepard: Yeah. Yeah. So I would say that any decision a kid of a parent who dropped their ball as a parent, in whatever way, whether you're talking about extreme abuse or you're talking about neglect, or you're just talking about a certain level of self-involvement and narcissism, whatever. If you didn't get what the contract said you should have gotten from a grown-up parent, right? I think any decision you make is okay. So if I had decided not to help her at the end of life, That... would've been a totally valid decision. And I was not, an, a victim of extreme abuse, right? I grew up in an upper middle class family in New York City. My education was paid for. I had a home, all of that. So I was not this is not like somebody sexually abused me and I needed to decide if I was gonna take care of them. But even in my case, I think as a grown-up kid, you get to decide what being a good daughter means to you. And that's why that book was so helpful for me to be able to go, "Oh, right, the contract is already broken, so how I respond to that is up to me." And if I decide that the way I can live with myself is by helping her do what she wants to do, then I'll do that. If I decide that that will cost me too much, that, or that I just don't want to, that's also okay. So I would, one bit of advice would be, be okay with the decision not to be involved. Candace Dellacona: I love that. I think it-- I think you're right. It's all bets are off in some ways. And, even the title of the essay is something that gives you permission to say out loud, which is, "The world is easier without you in it." And so it-- the title itself was striking to me when I saw your essay, Karen, because it really touched on something that a lot of kids, adult children don't feel comfortable saying out loud. And it's something that I think we all, when we have complex relationships with our parents, we all wrestle with. Karen Shepard: Mm-hmm. Relief Grief And Hope --- Candace Dellacona: So when you-- And we'll transition a little until after mom died, right? So how do you make space for the relief that you feel without the complex person, lack of a better word, torturing you during your life, right? With the grief, the real grief that that little girl who wrote the note to her mom and, they sit side by side, so you have these things that seem to contradict each other, these emotions. How do we do that without judging ourselves, without saying we should feel this way or that way? Karen Shepard: so that's where societal pressure comes into place, right? I think So many of us, I've heard it from so many people over the years, right? "Well, she's your mother," or, "Well, she also had it really tough." She had a very complicated, you know, relationship with her own mother, and in some ways way more complicated childhood than I had. But I don't think that gives people a free pass. And so, I can feel compassion for that, for what she dealt with, at the same time as I can hold her responsible for the ways in which she let me down. So what, one thing that was really helpful for me, and I've always been this way, is I seek out people around me who know more than I do. So you were definitely one of those people. I had a friend who said to me well before mom fell or decided to go to Switzerland, I was in a rough patch with mom and I was lamenting. I was just saying for the first time really in 58 years, I was saying out loud, "I am so sad and angry about the mom I got." So I had spent a lot of time-- I think if you have a complicated parent, you learn very quickly as a little person to go, "It's fine. It's fine. I can deal with it." And I became uber competent as a result, right? So it's they can throw whatever they're gonna throw at me, and I will handle it. And and I did. And I don't say I'm sad and angry. I never said that as a little kid, Candace Dellacona: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Karen Shepard: and I would tell stories about her and people would go, "Oh my God," and I would laugh usually, right? I would tell them as comic. And so maybe at age 58 I was like, "Oh my God, that sucked," and I remember saying to a good friend of mine who's a therapist, and she specializes in anxiety in families, I said to her, "God, I don't know what I'm gonna do when she gets older and needs me," right? I said, "You know what I hope? I hope she dies soon." And I said, "I know that's a terrible thing to say." And my friend said, "Karen, you know what would be a crazy thing for you to say? It would be a crazy thing for you to say, 'You know what I wish? I hope that she lives for another 15 years and our dynamic remains the way it's been this whole time.' That would be insane for you to say that," right? "So part of what you're saying when you say, 'I hope she dies soon,' is, 'I hope something shifts.' I hope... Because I'm giving up hope that things can change." And so I think when you give up hope things that change, you're taking the little person out of the driver's seat. Your little person is hoping- If I just get the right words in the right order, she will behave differently. She'll become the mom I would've picked at the mommy store, and when you give up on that hope or the expectation or the belief that you have that power to change them, then the grown-up is in the driver's seat. Which did really change the way I felt grief. Felt real sadness about the loss of that hope. So I felt really sad about, oh, you know what I don't have anymore is that part of me that's going, "Well, maybe there's this chance that if I talk to her this way or if I act that way, she'll become a different person," Candace Dellacona: the optimism, like the hope springs eternal Karen Shepard: So I think i'm grieving that, but I'm really not grieving her absence. I'm grieving the absence of that hope. Candace Dellacona: What could have been? Karen Shepard: Yeah. Candace Dellacona: And, I think that's really valid. And, I think when people grieve people in general, that's one of their sort of paths of grief, right? Whether it's a premature death or a relationship that never made it to the point that we hoped or the depth that we wished for. So when you were writing this, and I, just to play armchair psychologist, I assume there was some processing in writing all of this. Karen Shepard: You know, it's funny I've never had another experience with death like this one where you knew when it was coming and when you went with her. I was with my father when he died, but it was a different kind of thing, right? And I think there's a lot of front loading that happens when you choose to do something like assisted death. You have to think about these things, and if you're lucky and you have an, a companion to accompany you, you have to talk about these things or there at least there's the opportunity to do that. So there was a lot of processing that happened prior to the death, both with her and without her. And both because of her decision and also just because of having come to a point in my life where I needed to figure some stuff out about her. So I would say there's been less processing after the fact. There has been, in terms of the writing of the essay, there has been some learning about what it means to put this story down, to tell this story. That seems like a responsibility that I'm trying to honor because and that has less to do with, say, grieving her or thinking about her emotionally, and more to do with, okay, it's a big deal to tell part of your story that intersects with somebody else, and you owe them something when you do that. Candace Dellacona: Yeah. Legacy After Death --- Candace Dellacona: What I think you're talking about is legacy, and after going through something like this with a person who's so complicated, under the umbrella of the lifetime of complicated, it probably does change how you think about legacy in some ways and what you wanna carry forward from your mom, either about her, how she made you feel, or how you maybe don't wanna make your own kids feel. Karen Shepard: Yeah, and I think it's been interesting. I'm really not a very woo-woo person, but I'm more woo-woo now than I used to be. And and I would say that I've been surprised by how much my sense of the relationship, my side of the relationship has continued to evolve with- even without her here. And I remember somebody telling me before she died when I was struggling with how to relate to her, somebody said, "You know, if you are working on what you're bringing to the table with her, that's gonna affect the relationship even if she does not participate in this work." And that was really true. Just changing my side of the table just affected the whole thing in a way that I wouldn't have thought possible. And I think there's a parallel after she's gone. I continue largely through the writing, but also through talking to people about this 'cause a lot of people are interested in Switzerland, and I'm really happy to talk about it. Through talking about it and writing about it, there is an ongoing evolution in the relationship that I feel like I have with her. And I want that to be the best kind of relationship it can be. And that, in that case, it really doesn't depend on how she'll react 'cause she can't react, right? Candace Dellacona: Well, too, I think there's the sort of-- that theme is in something like "Les Miserables," right? Where you have the chains of the Earth no longer exist. So the relationship with your mom can technically be anything you wish it to be now, because her shortcomings and her own sort of issues that she grappled with during her life don't exist now, so you don't have the same kind of tension there and blocks, right? Aid In Dying Options --- Candace Dellacona: And so- For the listeners who are facing these difficult conversations and situations with their own parents, are there conversations that you think are important to have? You brought up these end of life matters because obviously that's what happened to your mom and my playing a little bit of a role in that, in talking about the type of care that you want at the end of your life. What do you think families should understand about end of life choices? And just to... you're in Massachusetts, but New York actually just passed the Medical Aid in Dying Act, which, of course, while it was in committee, Karen I know a New York State assemblyman, and I think of your mom every time the conversation comes up because of what she had to do in order to end her life. So my roundabout way of asking is, what do you think families should know about this? Karen Shepard: Yeah, so one thing that I've said to a lot of people since going through this with mom is that people should know what their choices are. I don't, think everyone should do this, right? But I think you should know if for example you can afford Switzerland and it's, all things considered, you're talking $10,000, which is not-- it's a lot of money, but it's-- and that includes cremation, right? Or getting the body back Candace Dellacona: Yeah. Here in New York City, a funeral, Karen, is easily $30,000, Karen Shepard: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. So it's okay, so I think sometimes just having-- You feel so out of control as you're getting older and diminishing, right? And you don't know what's coming. I definitely saw that with my father and my mother, right? To know that you can have some control if you want it, sometimes just knowing that that's the case. I remember reading a statistic about the Oregon Medical Aid in Dying Act, which I think is the oldest in the country. There's a doc called "How to Die in Oregon" that I watched many years ago, and it said something like a huge percentage of the patients who got approved and who got the prescription don't use it. It's just knowing that they have it if the pain gets too bad or if their quality of life gets too bad. And I just a friend of mine's father just died this week in Upstate New York, and he wanted, he ended up in the hospital, he was 92, and he wanted to stop. He wanted to go, and he couldn't do it 'cause, the New York State one doesn't go into effect till August 5th, right. And he was in a lot of psychic distress as a result of not being able to to go out on his own terms. So I would want people to talk about this stuff with their kids or with their parents, right. This is an option. I would also want them to be clear on what the difference between the European way of doing this and the American way of doing this is, which is there are very stringent parameters of who can qualify in the States. You have to be within six months of dying. A couple of doctors have to sign off on that. You cannot therefore... You have to be of sound mind, right? So you cannot therefore be an Alzheimer's patient and choose to do this, because you won't be within six months of dying when you're still of sound enough mind to make this decision. You cannot do this for mental health reasons, right? So you cannot do this if you don't have a terminal disease, but you decide the quality of your life is not what you want it to be. My mom did not have a terminal disease, but she couldn't read anymore, and she couldn't travel anymore, and she couldn't move around anymore. And she wasn't willing to do things that might have helped that, so she wa- she was ready. She was like I, my life has been full and I wanna get out of here," as she put it, "Go on to the next adventure." So I want people to be clear that, you can't do what she did in Vermont or in New York come August. And I also... i've never had... I know it's difficult. I'm sure a lot of your episodes have talked about this. It's really difficult to have these conversations with parents who do You know I'll often hear people go, "Well, I tried to bring this up with my parents," and they say, "Yeah, we should talk about this when I get old." And it's like "well, you're 90," You know, I think we need to talk about this." But I talk about it with my kids all the time, in a way that they would say is probably ghoulish, but I think on some level they appreciate, 'cause it's I don't know. I'm, and I err on the side... i'm probably not cautious enough about this, but I'm like, "Hey, let's bring up everything. If you don't wanna talk about it you can tell me you don't wanna talk about it. But I'm not gonna worry about that sort of prophylactically." So I'm happy to have anyone ask me anything. If I don't want to answer it, I'll say, "I'm not gonna answer that," you know? So I, I feel that way about money, I feel that way about health, I feel that way about issues of dying and sickness. But I think you should be really clear on when would life not be worth living for you? And obviously that line can change, right? Candace Dellacona: It, it can. And it's different for every person. And, when you think about, too, what it takes to actually go through with it even reading in your essay, you wrote a very detailed account sharing the messages with, your own family of five, and, you were on the plane and in the room with your mom. What I think of when I think of someone like your mom who did a very good job at articulating her wishes and her limits. And as a daughter, I will say to you, I think you did such a great job supporting those things, even if it wasn't something that maybe you would have done. Karen Shepard: No, it's very hard to learn how to meet them on their own terms, right? I think we practice this with our children, if you have children, all the time. And I think it's difficult with our children too, but it's a little easier with our children, right? Candace Dellacona: Yeah, but as sandwich generation members, Karen, we're also modeling for our kids. And one of the things that, you do as a mom, being the daughter that you were, even to someone that wasn't always so kind to you, was you were still Karen, and you did still treat her with a lot of kindness and empathy and respect. And I remember being in awe of you back then because, you were met with such not always the sort of kindest approach, and yet you remained above board. And it was so admirable because it was so difficult. So I would say to our listeners that, number one, I think when our parents are going through this, they're generally not their best selves, and maybe their whole lives they weren't, right. But starting the conversation, having the conversation, and it doesn't have to be a one and done. As you point out, Karen, your mom changed her mind Karen Shepard: A lot. Candace Dellacona: a lot, and we didn't know until the very end what she was going to do. Karen Shepard: Correct. Correct. Holding Two Truths --- Karen Shepard: And the other thing is I think there's there's a way in which she-- the person she created in me, for better and worse, she created the person who could do that for her Candace Dellacona: Ah, Karen Shepard: And so who, who would not fall apart, who would not, who would be able to meet what she wanted very pragmatically, who would be able to figure it out and arrange it and take her and, all of that. So there was a way in which there was something ironically, paradoxically full circle about the whole thing, which was she was grateful that I was there to help her do that. Candace Dellacona: She raised a researcher, a r- a person who was resourceful, a person who was not judgmental, everything she needed at the end of her life, Karen Shepard: Yep. Candace Dellacona: which is really remarkable. Karen Shepard: Yeah. No, I, I-- And so I can be grateful for how I got that way, that, through that too. In other words, I am grateful that I was a person who could do that with her. She didn't have anybody else. I was her primary person, and the other people in her life would've had a much harder time accompanying her on this, right? So I'm glad I was there for her, and I think that you can have enormous compassion for difficult people and simultaneously... i'm always telling my students, both things can be true. You can hold two conflicting things in your hands at the same time, and simultaneously you can treat them with enough respect to hold them responsible for their behavior. So for example, one thing that little Karen always thought was when she's angry, you just have to stand that, you just have to stand in the tsunami of her being obnoxious or whatever. And again, another really wise friend who I had through all this said to me, "Why do you have to stand in the tsunami? Just step out of its way." Candace Dellacona: It's interesting too. But we are where we are, and we're doing the best that we can. And I, I really think that it was so amazing of you to share with the world your story all of the bumps along the way. And what I'll say to you as an observer is, and I remember thinking this waiting to hear back from you via email 'cause I knew you were going to Switzerland, I knew the date. I don't know if you remember this, but I said are you on your way back?" Or something to that, not wanting to really ask. And when you were back in the States, you had emailed me and said, everything went as expected. And I remember thinking what a beautiful gift you gave your mom, when she was not always the best mom. mom when she was not always the best mom. And when my own dad died, I remember, it was actually a priest who said to me, "What a beautiful thing to be able to usher a parent out the way that they ushered you in." And it definitely, that makes me think of you as well, that you with kindness did what she wanted and found a way through for her. And I think that that's really the sort of ultimate statement of love and something that you've obviously modeled for your kids. So the last question I'll have, 'cause you've been so generous with your time, is- After everything that you've experienced, being the daughter the complicated mother-daughter relationship, the end of life discussion, as you point out, what is the sort of takeaway that you have with respect to that time? Is it relief overall? Is it, "I did good"? Is it a combination of those things? Do you have regret? Regret Prevention --- Karen Shepard: Well, I'm-- I mean, we all always have regret, it seems to me. But So there was something that was really useful for me in terms of regret before she died, which was in that year before she died when I wasn't speaking with her really. I thought, okay, if she died tomorrow and her apartments were emptied and I lost everything in them, right? What would I regret not having made clear to her and what would I regret not having to have saved just materially? And it was very, very clear to me that I had made clear how I felt in a variety of ways over many years, and I really, really felt that. I'm a writer not by accident, right? Writers are people who believe if we put the right words in the right order, people we care about will understand and will connect with them. So I had through my published writing, through letters to her, through conversations, through everything, made really clear what I was feeling at various times in my life, and I didn't feel like I had anything else to-- that I would regret not having said to her. So that was really, really helpful. And then the only thing I wanted from the apartment were all her papers. I wanted her journals, I wanted her attempts at writing fiction. I wanted letters, I wanted... And so I wrote her even though we weren't speaking, and I did it in a very canny, manipulative way. I said "My daughter and I were looking at something you had sent us that you had written. Am I remembering correctly that you have more of that?" And she wrote me back in four minutes 'cause she was a narcissist. And so if she was like, "Bring boxes. You're gonna need a lot of boxes." And then she invented that I was writing a biography of her, and I didn't disabuse her of that. And I think one of the ironies of this whole thing is that I am writing about her now, and there is nothing that would have thrilled her more. She spent her whole life going, "Well, you should write a book about me," right? So I I found-- I think that question was a really useful question to ask myself early on. What will you feel like you missed? My therapist friend calls it regret prevention, right? What will you regret if you don't do X or Y? Candace Dellacona: Yeah, perfect way to frame it. Karen Shepard: Yeah. And then the other thing is I'm so grateful that the last few months of her life between us, between her and me were so much better than they might have been from both sides. She-- Once she made that decision, she was easier in the world. She could be easier in the world, and that included me. And for so much of her life, I was somebody who she couldn't do what she could do with other people with me. And so it was lovely to be the recipient of that for a few months, and it was also lovely to be able to offer her something. The other thing is, I'm so grateful for the people who helped me navigate that time. The friends I mentioned, you, Christine Davis at Care Collective, who you put me in touch with. All these people who came at the problem from different angles and helped navigate a really high emotions, high stake situation in a way that seemed deeply compassionate and also supremely pragmatic. Which was also, by the way, what the clinic in Switzerland was like. I was worried it was gonna feel like an assembly line 'cause it's the Swiss. Candace Dellacona: Yeah. Karen Shepard: But it was, like such a good mix of so caring and so rational. Candace Dellacona: And intentional, it sounds like. Community And Thanks --- Candace Dellacona: Well, I Obviously it was my pleasure to help you, and I think one of the things that we tried to create with this podcast is the sense of community because I think being a child of an aging loved one can be really lonely, and dealing with the family dynamics on top of it can be particularly challenging. Listen, there are so many of us out here that are looking to help, and I'm glad that you felt helped because I know that that's what we try to do for people, and I hope that, you realize again what-- I was in awe of you then and certainly now for sharing all of this, so- Thank you so much for your time, Karen, and I cannot wait to read the book, so Karen Shepard: I've got to get to work on it Candace Dellacona: we get... You, you have to get to work on it. I need to know more. But thank you so much, Karen, for sharing your story with us and sharing your mom with us. Karen Shepard: Thank you for the invitation. It was a pleasure. Candace Dellacona: Yeah, my pleasure. Subscribe And Resources --- Candace Dellacona: Hey , survivors. Be sure to follow and subscribe to The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. We're back with new conversations on the first and third Tuesdays of every month. If you're finding value in the show, I'd be grateful if you left a five-star review and shared it with other survivors navigating this season of life known as the sandwich generation. For resources and a full library of past episodes, visit sandwichgenerationlaw.com. Follow the conversation on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at sandwich generation podcast. Until next time, take care of yourself while surviving and hopefully thriving in the sandwich generation.