Medicare May Already Cover the Care Advocate You Didn't Know You Had === Caregiving Needs Support --- Candace Dellacona: Hey, survivors. So one of the goals of this podcast is not just to validate how hard caregiving is, advocating for our aging loved ones, raising good humans, but it's also to introduce you to resources that can actually make your life easier. Most caregivers don't need more information. They are overwhelmed with information. They need more support, they need more time, and they need more people in their corner. Meet Connor and Baba --- Candace Dellacona: That's why I am so excited to introduce Connor Sweeney, who is the founder of Baba, a care advocacy company that is helping families navigate some of the most overwhelming parts of caregiving. Candace Dellacona: Welcome to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide. I am your host, Candace Dellacona, and without further ado, we are welcoming Connor Sweeney, the founder of Baba. Welcome, Connor. Connor Sweeney: Hey, Candace. Thanks for having me Candace Dellacona: So happy to have you here. Let's jump right into it. For the listeners who have not heard of BABA, what exactly is it? Connor Sweeney: I love introducing people to this for the first time because they always think it's too good to be true. But Baba is a service that connects people and families with Medicare, Medicare Advantage, and Medicaid with a dedicated advocate. So this is a nurse or a social worker or community health worker that's seen the healthcare system up close for years and is able to achieve a lot of the logistical and the really gnarly parts of healthcare on behalf of that family. Candace Dellacona: That's a great answer and it's very succinct. But for the listeners who are sort of entering into this world of Medicare, Medicaid, insurance, and that long-term care piece that a lot of our aging loved ones struggle with, tell us exactly, in maybe layman's terms, what problem were you specifically trying to solve when you founded Baba? Maybe give us a little history about the company. Connor Sweeney: Definitely. Why Baba Was Built --- Connor Sweeney: I came to building Baba, I think like many founders in healthcare, after a personal family healthcare experience. So I was working in a totally different industry a couple years ago when my grandmother had a stroke back in Delaware, where I grew up. Small family. I actually relocated back to Delaware to do a lot of the care coordination after she had a stroke that left her with something called aphasia, so she speaks mostly in gibberish now. And the recovery after a stroke just looks like endless occupational and physical and speech therapy, which often runs out. Your insurance says, "No more." And when you have a pretty severe stroke or multiple strokes, in her case, you see the, retrogression, like the lack of progress slide back really quickly after therapy stops. And so I was always on the phone with insurance companies. I was always filling out forms. We were trying to find out what equipment was covered because she needed grab bars, and that really led to starting Baba. And tangibly, where a Baba advocate would fit in my experience was I wouldn't need to learn on the fly during this really critical moment in my family's healthcare. I could have leaned on an advocate who's worked with hundreds or thousands of families that had similar experiences, and that advocate knows exactly how to advocate for more OT, PT, speech therapy, what forms to fill out, what government programs we're not recognizing. And the cool thing is that insurance covers it. Medicare, Medicare Advantage plans are recognizing that this sort of, logistical assistance, filling out the forms, getting the appointments scheduled, getting the transportation, that's really what stops people from focusing on getting healthy. Covered by Insurance --- Candace Dellacona: Okay, so let's just go back to that, Connor, because you glossed over it. I want listeners to understand that this benefit of BABA is covered by insurance. So that means that those who need BABA can probably get it for close to free or a small copay on your insurance. So what Connor just explained is that this advocacy piece, which we all need because we're all operating in the blind, right? At one point or another, there are caregivers who are further down the line and have better access or understanding of what the resources are. But particularly for those just starting out their journey, it's really important that people understand that this benefit through BABA is for everyone. So let's talk a little bit about what a care advocate is, Connor, and help us understand as caregivers why we need one. Connor Sweeney: We are free for over 95% of our families and some people do have a small copay, but the vast majority are paying nothing out of pocket for this benefit, and it's moving the needle. We're actually doing a bunch of, studies to really concretely prove that if you work with an advocate, you or your loved one is less likely to go to the hospital, less likely to end up in a nursing home, and less likely to have a really bad outcome. But the reality is that this is no cost for most families. And, caregiving is one of those things where it doesn't get easier over time. You know what I mean? And there's so many different entry points. Most people only start to really think about these conversations after a fall or a diagnosis when everything feels really urgent, and it's a little emotional because someone you care about is probably dealing with something that sucks, right? And in many cases, it's not gonna get a ton better. Really, where our advocates thrive is joining that care team, not as a replacement for a doctor, not as a replacement for you as the adult child or maybe the caregiver themselves, but so that you can focus on staying a family member more than becoming a clinical assistant, which is really where our advocates fill the role. Candace Dellacona: Yeah. That makes sense. What Advocates Handle --- Candace Dellacona: So for those thinking about how care advocacy can sort of lighten the load, we're talking about advocacy to help us coordinate appointments, right, Connor? Dealing with insurance issues as it relates to what will be covered by Medicare or even Medicaid. I presume that some transportation issues as well. Connor Sweeney: Yeah, Candace you're hitting the nail on the head. Like we do everything, you know, at the risk of rambling, we will get you a specialist appointment. We'll find what doctors are in network with you. If you are blocked from getting that doctor's appointment, we'll get you what's called NEMT. It's, free transportation. We will get you mobility equipment. We will get you cheaper drugs. Most people don't even realize that you might have your prescriptions 20% cheaper at a pharmacy that's a mile further away. We'll enroll you in Medicaid. We'll get you in food stamps. We'll figure out if a nursing home is the best option, how much time you have for free in a nursing home. We'll vet assisted livings for you. We'll connect you with people like yourselves, right? We don't do legal work, but we are able to connect the dots for a lot of families that are just so underwater with what's going on. And I think the other thing too, Candace, is, this is not new, right? The fact that we've gotten it covered by insurance across the country is new, but the model of, having a concierge consultant for your family during hard caregiving times is, as old as time. But it used to be super hard to get access to because it was expensive, and these people are experts. And they can charge hundreds of dollars an hour sometimes. And so it wasn't always the first thing that you'd think of especially for little things that, you and I we're high agency people. We like to think of the fact, "Oh, I can book an appointment. It's not that hard." Candace Dellacona: Yeah Connor Sweeney: it adds up really quickly, especially when it's on top of your own day-to-day life. Managing mom's 10 doctors and 15 pills, it's almost irresponsible to not outsource to an expert when you can. Candace Dellacona: I think you're right. I think that there's a perception that the soup to nuts sort of help is something that only comes at a premium. I was certainly in that camp. And I'll give our listeners a little bit of background. You and I met at a really amazing event here in New York City called Caravan that was sponsored by Gray Monster, bringing together resources for caregivers in the New York City area. I think a lot of us in this industry are looking for platforms to share the resources and help each other kind of mine our own contacts. So when I heard about Baba, I knew I had to have you on the podcast. And the reason why people listen to us is to understand what the options are that are out there. Care Navigation Problems --- Candace Dellacona: So let's get a little more into the weeds and talk a little bit about what you're seeing on the provider end in terms of the provider of the coordination of care. What are the most common struggles that you see families are facing today in this sort of care navigation space? Connor Sweeney: There's-- it's a great question, Candace, 'cause I'm super excited about some of the impacts we've had. I think those go hand in hand. It's like, what are we most helping with people with? And honestly what's coming up more and more. One thing I want to point out too is for everyone that's working with an advocate, they just save the contact Baba Advocate in their phone, like a normal phone number. So you don't have to have a smartphone. You don't have to download an app. You can log in online if you want, but most people just have it as like this concierge person that they can call and text 24/7. And those advocates work for us usually full-time and live in this like suite of supercharged tools that we've built them so that they are doing case management on steroids for this individual. Just to give a picture of like how that interface works. So it's a ton of finding providers that are covered. People are routinely waiting seven, eight months to get specialist appointments or even annual wellness visits, like with a PCP, like a primary care doctor they may have had for a long time. That we're in a primary care doctor shortage, but you know what happens when you can't get an appointment for months? You just don't go, right? And then stuff compounds, and then you have bad outcomes. And so this is really avoiding hospitalization because you get ahead of those types of things. We also do a ton around what used to be called like social determinants of health. They're having a rebrand right now of like upstream drivers of health, but they are the things that you and I don't think of as medical, right? Are you in a safe home? Can your service dog live in your apartment? Are your neighbors smoking and your asthma or COPD is getting much worse because of that? Are you like limited from going to the doctor because you don't have a car, right? These are types of things that you and I don't think of as medicine, but they're the reason that so many people have really bad outcomes and our teams are like laser-focused on fixing those. Candace Dellacona: And uncovering them, it sounds like, because I think as the patient ourselves and as the caregiver, we don't even often know what to mention or what could be important as it relates to those things. Like you bring up, having a smoker next door. I don't know that I would think to bring that up if I were caring for somebody that had a breathing problem, thinking, how could a service like yours lighten that load or solve for that? So that's kind of amazing. How Onboarding Works --- Candace Dellacona: When a person finds Baba and they say, "Okay, this could be something that really could help me in terms of what I'm doing for my mom or my dad or a grandparent." Walk us through a typical engagement. A daughter like me calls because I'm overwhelmed and I'm caring for my dad. What happens next? Connor Sweeney: So when you start with an advocate at Baba, and we get people sent to us from nursing homes, from hospitals, from home health agencies, the whole nine yards. And a lot of people also just find us online when they're often at their wits' ends, thinking, "How am I gonna do all this myself? What's out there? Can I save money? Can I save time?" That's what people want, right? And when they start, they do our onboarding -- and you can do this over the phone or over a computer. We have live humans that can book your appointment there. You start with a call that is from one of our doctors, and they call you up and they ask all these questions about how can we help. And they're trained to uncover these things that we don't think of necessarily as top-of-mind concerns. They're MDs, DOs, and we actually have nurse practitioners too. But they don't replace a primary care doctor. So this is not a doctor that's stepping on toes. If anything, actually it's the opposite. We have PCPs that are like, "Please work with an advocate," because for them it even means that Candace Dellacona: their job, yeah, easier. Connor Sweeney: Yeah, exactly. And maybe they won't, they know that certain patients only come once every few years 'cause they're really hard to get ahold of. Having an advocate means they're more likely to come for their annual wellness visit, right? And we have all these integrations. We're really a tech team at our heart. Tech team with really good clinical leadership. All of our advocates report up to Alicia Tennenbaum, who was the executive director of care transitions from the Mount Sinai Health System for decades, so she has seen every edge case. So we have no stone unturned from a clinical perspective. But we have all this data on every patient. We know their health records, we know what they've been in the hospital before for, and so that lets us create a really good care plan for free, and that gives us a roadmap of how to help that person. And then that care plan gets handed off to an advocate. We match them with an advocate. Usually, that advocate is in the same geography as them because there's a lot of local resources that people need to know about on the ground floor. And then the advocate introduces themselves, and it's an ongoing relationship from there. Really is like a clinical assistant for every family. Candace Dellacona: So essentially the doctor acts as the triage to get the widest lens possible and the patient and the caregiver, I assume can help the patient go through an intake process? Connor Sweeney: That's right. And honestly, it's a little over half of the folks that we work with are the older individual themselves, or not just older the person with Medicare, Medicare Advantage, or a dual eligible person. But the rest of the time we're working with someone like you or me, right? Like a sandwich generation caregiver who is the middleman with the advocate. Candace Dellacona: Yeah, and so we're able to help the patient provide some of this information, at least anecdotally, so when the first call is made, we're off to the races. And then you're assigning someone more local or at least has local knowledge of the resources available in the patient's kind of space, geographical location, right? Connor Sweeney: Yep, exactly. Coverage and Eligibility --- Candace Dellacona: And so are there areas in the country where BABA has not been able to serve yet, just so that, we have some awareness in terms of our listeners and where they are? Connor Sweeney: We have served people in every single state across the country, which I'm so excited by. And every single day we are getting more and more coverage on the Medicare Advantage side. I was naive to this as well, but just in case any listeners are were like me, Medicare is at the federal level. That's, based on age primarily, but also if you've had disability for two years, you have end-stage renal disease or ALS, right? And then Medicare Advantage is like a private version of Medicare that is run by private companies who can decide what services they want to cover and what services they think bring value. I think that's a testament to the fact that we've gotten coverage and working with so many of them so quickly in every single state because they see the value of what we're doing. Denials and Big Savings --- Candace Dellacona: Which is amazing because I think what a lot of people struggle with are denials. And as laypeople, it's hard to know where to go upon reaching a denial. So having an advocate in place that understands the right language that you should use to make sure that things could be implemented that would otherwise be denied all the way through. So is Baba an organization or does the care manager, the advocate help with those denials? Connor Sweeney: They do. And Candace, let me even share a story specifically that just blew my mind about a week ago. So we had a resident come to us. They live in a senior living community, okay? They were hospitalized and they came to their advocate and were like, "What on earth is this bill? I need help appealing the charges." It was over $40,000. And our advocate was able to identify that the secondary insurance had been billed instead of Medicare, right? So it was like a technical mistake on the side of the payers. Medicare, when we contacted them, the advocate-- and all of this, by the way, is our detective work, our calling, our filling out the forms. Our advocate contacted Medicare to review the claim. They were initially a little confused because they didn't realize that they had denied coverage. And after a bunch of investigation, we realized that the denial actually stemmed from the client having an open claim with her auto insurance dating back to 2009. Okay? And it's crazy how these things compound. We ended up speaking with the client's auto insurance representative and with Medicare to make sure that that was no longer a blocker to her getting the care that she needed. And so long story short, after this whole detective rigmarole that our advocate did, we were able to save the client over $40,000 because of this denial being fixed from something that she didn't even realize she was on the hook for, what, 17 years ago. Candace Dellacona: That is, first of all, how infuriating and frustrating, but what a huge win for you and for the patient and for everyone involved to make sure that the patient got the care that they needed and didn't have to pay a bill that they wouldn't technically owe anyway. So that's remarkable. That's a great example. Respite and Benefits Help --- Candace Dellacona: What are the other services that Baba provides that you think create, let's say, the biggest sense of relief for caregivers themselves? Connor Sweeney: That's a great question. Some of the biggest ways we create immediate relief for caregivers are understanding what respite opportunities there are. There are so many government and local resources out there that save you time and money, and people don't realize it. And that's because so many of these require forms, waiting on hold, they have websites that haven't been updated in 20 years, and it's just hard to think about, measure it out. Am I gonna get any money and time even if I have to spend six hours doing this program? We know those programs, we know the people that run them, so we can find them money. So things like getting you respite care getting you veterans benefits that you haven't been entitled to. We worked with an individual who was from a SNF in his hundreds, and he, claims that he was in Normandy on D-Day, right? But he never got his veterans benefits. Candace Dellacona: And for listeners, a SNF is a skilled nursing facility, like a nursing home Connor Sweeney: Yep. Exactly. And so this is a guy who, you know, for the last 60, 70 years has not gotten his veterans benefits. And we started that process for the first time to try to get him those benefits. And now his son is also in his 80s too, who actually is entitled to a lot of benefits too. But other things like getting you your house refitted after an accident or a fall, things like grab bars are often covered by insurance that people don't realize how to get much cheaper. They just end up going to Amazon and buying a much more expensive option. And then we do a ton with government programs. So we do a ton with food stamps and electricity benefits so that people can... 'Cause Candace, if you're choosing between your rent and your groceries, you're-- and taking your meds on time is like a complete afterthought, right? So we gotta start with what the biggest obstacle is. Candace Dellacona: Really what Baba is, is a go-to for anyone wanting to understand what their local resources are, who the best doctors are that can help them, what sort of public benefits they may qualify for, and to advocate to make sure that those care providers are providing you the medical coverage and the medical care that you're entitled to, which is pretty remarkable. It's like a combination of a care manager, a geriatric care manager, a social worker, your own social worker, and almost like a physician in your own family that would be trying to do these things Connor Sweeney: It's like having a case manager in your pocket, but that It's the same person every time. It's not a call center, right? You have a hospital, you have an insurance company that offers case management, but you call in and it's someone who has 80 clients a day they need to call, and they don't know anything about you when you call in, Candace Dellacona: yeah. So tell me then, when it comes to timing, Connor, 'cause I think a lot of times families don't know when to start. Often it's too late just by virtue of the fact, as you point out people in family situations are taking the approach, "If it's not broken, what is the solution I'm looking for?" So talk to me a little about timing and when, from Baba's perspective, what the optimum time is to reach out to Baba. Is it after an event happens or before? And if before, when before? Connor Sweeney: So the second that you see a bill or a piece of paper or a phone call or know you have to make a doctor's appointment and just get that annoyance of having to do it is when you should go to our website or call Baba. Candace Dellacona: So over 65. Connor Sweeney: Well, not even, a lot of... 'cause it's Medicare, Medicare Advantage and dual-eligible people. And like I said, you don't have to be 65 to have Medicare. We work with a lot of people that are younger. Candace Dellacona: Let's, parse through that a little. So for those listening, you can be on Medicare if you are certified disabled, right, Connor? Connor Sweeney: For two years, or if you have end-stage renal disease, or if you have ALS, or if you turn 65 Candace Dellacona: Got it. So all of those factors could allow you to qualify for BABA before age 65 Connor Sweeney: Yep. And if you have Medicare or Medicare Advantage and think you might be eligible for Medicaid, then we can do that, not only screen for you, we can figure out concretely is that true or not, but also we can do the paperwork, Candace Dellacona: You can do Medicaid applications? Connor Sweeney: Yes. Candace Dellacona: Fantastic. Connor Sweeney: Yep. We do that all the time. And another thing too, Candace, you said about what could we immediately offer a family caregiver. Depression and stress is so much higher for family caregivers, and they often need resources for therapy along with older adults, because grief and changes in your mobility are often incredibly mentally taxing, and mental health issues are very acute in, in people that we don't otherwise think of as needing therapists. And actually, with a lot of older adults, we call it counseling 'cause it's just generationally how it's better perceived. But we can connect you with counselors who are experts in caregivers or experts in geriatric mental health. Candace Dellacona: Amazing. Really amazing. So when it comes to, what we're worrying about as caregivers or families, what do you think, are there issues that we're worrying about or that we're focusing on that are actually not the biggest issues? Connor Sweeney: What are things that we are over-worried about? That is such a good question. I think, I hear all the time people about, like wondering about how do I stay out of a nursing home or what's the best assisted living and, they're used to all of these websites that are like pushing them to go move into an assisted living because that's how they make money, right? They get commission. We don't make commission like that, so it's a little bit less pressure to go make a decision as quickly, which I think a lot of patients appreciate, where you can vet resources in a way that's not gonna You can trust that we're not gonna be incentivized by those those decisions that you make. Candace Dellacona: You bring up a really good point though, Connor, 'cause I think a lot of people don't realize even when it comes to the care that they're receiving, let's say, in a rehab, for those who don't realize if you have an injury or a surgery, let's say, and you're entitled to under the Medicare rules up to 100 days of rehab care, you're not guaranteed those 100 days, and candidly, you're not even guaranteed the first 20 days that are covered entirely by Medicare. So what Connor is referring to is the fact that often the facilities that are providing that rehabilitation care are incentivized to have you discharged earlier because their per diem rate then is higher. Now, of course, if a facility does that to your detriment and you're re-injured or something happens, then there are consequences certainly that a facility has to worry about. But what Connor is really referring to is that BABA has no skin in the game and You're taking the time to make sure that you're getting to the right answers and advocating for as much care as possible. Connor Sweeney: Exactly. And, I will say to the nursing homes' defenses, I have met no one but the most good-hearted and well-intentioned people in these homes. But it's a tough work environment, and there's a lot of competing incentives that make it hard to know who to trust sometimes when you are dealing with this super stressful moment with your family, right? Candace Dellacona: that's fair Connor Sweeney: Yeah. And so the cool thing about Baba is that our advocates are impartial. They're covered by insurance, but we don't represent insurance. And in fact, we often go against insurance because we're fighting those denials. Yep. Family Conflict and Neutrality --- Candace Dellacona: When you think about caregiving in general, there's tons of family conflict, and I often come in as the elder care attorney or the estate planning attorney where I'm the neutral third party, and I think people have an easier time hearing my advice than maybe advice that could be identical from a family member that somebody doesn't generally agree with, right? So how does Baba step in when family members disagree about care decisions that the advocate may be guiding one towards? Connor Sweeney: That's a very tricky situation, as I'm sure that you've experienced so many times too. I will say we don't practice law, so our advocates are not Candace Dellacona: Sure Connor Sweeney: to the same degree kind of suggesting things that would be perhaps super triggering for a family around allocation of family, wealth or assets Candace Dellacona: Of course, of course. More, let's talk about care issues, right? So some people have very strong ideas about care being received in the home or care being received in an independent or an assisted living facility, let's Connor Sweeney: Yeah. So when families have internal disagreements about-- we even had this in my own family when my grandmother had a stroke. It's always my mom and me pushing for us to for my grandparents to move into a safer facility, 'cause they live in a three-story house, like in rural Delaware, but lots of stairs, right? And they are so insistent on staying in place, which is usually the thread you see. We will always-- The advocates will defer to what the client says. If there's a power of attorney or some sort of legally binding thing where the family caregiver is the one actually deciding the care, maybe they have dementia that's progressed to a degree that they have a Candace Dellacona: Sure Connor Sweeney: POA, then we'll defer to that. But the other thing too that's nice is the advocate is like a researcher. So everyone likes to say "ChatGPT can do my research for me," but it's not gonna call the facility and understand exactly what's gonna happen for your family. They're not gonna actually fill out the forms. They're not gonna do all the work that would be necessary for you to make a really informed decision. Hidden VA Aid Benefit --- Candace Dellacona: So from your perspective as the captain of the ship of BABA, and you have all of these advocates across the country working for all of these families, is there one resource that sticks out in your mind, Connor, that most families don't even know exists? Connor Sweeney: It's a great question, and I think one that has really caught my attention recently as we've been working with more veterans is the VA has something called the Aid and Attendance benefit. It's a monthly pension that actually stacks on top of the VA pension for wartime vets and their surviving spouses. And what's cool is it really focuses on some of that those daily tasks, those daily living activities like bathing and feeding and dressing. But it keeps them in the home longer than trying to get them out to a nursing home Candace Dellacona: You're right. The aid and attendance benefit is something that a lot of people don't know about and certainly I encourage our listeners to learn about it, certainly call Baba about it. But it really can provide an extra, resource, an extra pension to help pay for those activities of daily living. So call Baba to find out if you qualify. Caregiving Culture Shift --- Candace Dellacona: So what is one thing that you wish every sandwich generation caregiver understood that you don't think they understand out of the gate, Connor? Connor Sweeney: I think across the board, you're seeing caregiver benefits for the sandwich generation finally starting to get some attention. People like yourselves are making content around it. I would say that they are-- like caregiving is where women's health and fertility benefits were maybe 15 years ago. And you've seen how that has just grown into something that is so normalized. Employers cover it there's benefits, and it's spoken about. Caregiving, Kim Elliott from Gray Monsters is the best at saying this, but like you don't want to catch caregiving. That's like the attitude a lot of people have, and it's fortunate, but it's true, right? You don't want to talk about how your dad, like you changed his diapers, right? That's not like casual, fun conversation. And so I think that you're starting to see that change for the first time because employers are losing money when their employees have to manage both their kids, themselves, and their parents. And the government is losing a ton of money because it's not encouraging people to stay at home and giving them the resources to do that safely. Candace Dellacona: I think you're right. Wrap Up and Subscribe --- Candace Dellacona: I think one of the beauties of the problem being so overwhelming, the sort of like silver lining of the fact that A, it's universal and B, there are so many of us that are overwhelmed, is that we're all realizing that caregiving is not a solo act. Part of surviving this season of life is knowing that help exists. Give yourself permission to use it, and I have to give you a shout-out, Connor, because we need people like you who are looking at the problem and coming up with a solution. It was there all along. I've been practicing 24 years, and I didn't know that Medicare, Medicare Advantage, and sometimes Medicaid can cover a good portion of these types of services. So I cannot thank you enough for using your big brain and, your business prowess to bring this to the masses. Because Baba can be transformative for so many of us who are in the sandwich generation and are desperate for help. So thank you so much for being here. We're gonna have resources in our show notes for all of the listeners. I know that you're gonna see a big uptick, Connor, in the reach outs to Baba because it's such an amazing platform, and I can't thank you enough for bringing it to the masses. Connor Sweeney: No, I appreciate it, and thanks for having me on today. And this is just the start. So I gotta give credit to CMS, to the folks that are, as of the last few years, actually recognizing that this type of care keeps people healthy and at home. And we're just trying to make it work. Candace Dellacona: Yeah. You're doing a great job. Thanks again, Connor. Connor Sweeney: Thanks, Candace. Take care. Hey, survivors. Be sure to follow and subscribe to The Sandwich Generation Survival Guide wherever you get your podcasts, so you never miss an episode. We're back with new conversations on the first and third Tuesdays of every month. If you're finding value in the show, I'd be grateful if you left a five-star review and shared it with other survivors navigating this season of life known as the sandwich generation. For resources and a full library of past episodes, visit sandwichgenerationlaw.com. Follow the conversation on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok @sandwichgenerationpodcast. Until next time, take care of yourself while surviving and hopefully thriving in the sandwich generation.