[00:00:00:02 - 00:00:28:06] CANDACE Hey, survivors. For those of us in the middle, this episode is for you. We talk a lot about self-care and boundaries and protecting your own identity on this podcast, but this is a guest who truly has put so much thought into what it means to protect and reclaim your identity and telling the truth in the process. I am so excited to welcome author, founder, entrepreneur, poet, writer, Kerry Doherty. [00:00:28:06 - 00:00:31:21] (Music Playing) [00:00:34:04 - 00:01:37:12] CANDACE Hey, survivors. Welcome to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide. I am your host, Candice Delicona. I am so excited to welcome Kerry Doherty today, who is an entrepreneur. She is a co-founder of a successful and ethical fashion line, if I might add. She's a poet. She's an activist. She's an author of a children's book. And now she is the author of her very own memoir that I loved, Selfish, Unlearning, Reclaiming, and Telling the Truth, which came out earlier this year. And I read it in less than two days. Kerry, welcome. Oh, I'm so happy to be here. I'm so happy to have you. We talk all the time, Kerry, about life in the sandwich generation and kind of what that means. Often it delves into caregiving and raising good humans and advocating for aging loved ones. But the reason why I'm having you on today is because you have put in the work and figuring out how not to lose yourself in the midst of it all. And that is something that is elusive to most of us. [00:01:37:12 - 00:01:49:02] KERRY Yes, I put in the work of how not to lose myself after losing myself and then starting the journey of finding myself again. [00:01:49:02 - 00:02:38:09] CANDACE You know, it's so interesting you say that. It's like almost you have to go through the process of being that panic of saying, where did I go? Where do I begin? Where does everyone else end? Where does everyone else's needs-- where are they prioritized? And I think the answer is different every day. But for our listeners who don't know your story-- and we'll go into your whole story, but starting with the memoir and this beautiful book that you've written that, quite frankly, when I read the reviews, there were so many sort of strong reactions. Let's do it. Which I'm sure you anticipated a little, but even just the title. When did you come up with the title of selfish? And why do you think you chose that particular work? [00:02:38:09 - 00:04:32:05] KERRY The word is so activating to people, particularly women. So I always joke, if I read one more obituary where a woman is described in a complementary way, quote unquote, how selfish or selfless she was, I'm going to scream because it really connotes how so much of women's worthiness is how much they give away of themselves for the benefit of other people. And when men sacrifice things for their dreams and they chase their desires and they pursue their needs, they are often seen as successful, accomplished, ambitious. But the second a woman starts to put herself first, even if it inconveniences other people, that word quote unquote, selfish is thrown around. The book opens with my husband and I in couples therapy negotiating my salary. Family business, working with your husband is not for the faint of heart. And him essentially stating, even though he's a progressive feminist male, that I should make more than you because I'm more committed to the business and you just quote unquote, do what you want. And when I asked him back, why don't you do what you want? He replied, because I'm not selfish. And so the book really explores the messy and complicated journey of my life and being a people pleasing, good, sacrificing woman and trying to reclaim parts of myself that I had lost. And this is not a self-help book. This is a messy, complicated journey. There are times when I'm unlikable in the book. But I really explore motherhood and marriage and longing and creativity and what happens when we start to pursue the things that make us feel alive and the consequences of that. [00:04:32:05 - 00:05:38:18] CANDACE And you did explore it. You were so open and transparent and it was so raw and authentic. And I think that is why it is resonating with so many readers for good or for bad. I found it so interesting on some of the comments as it relates to particularly women almost validating, yes, you are selfish. And it's such an accusation in some ways. And that's, I think, their intention. But I love how what you're doing is reframing it to have it sort of stop feeling like an accusation. So you bring up that point in the book. And I remember that opening talking about you and Alex and the gallery issue and what your contributions were. Other than that, was there a specific person or a moment in time when you were like, wait a minute, hold on a second. When did I have to be put last? Or what was sort of like the event that made you stop in your tracks and start again to say, I need to change and reframe this issue for myself? [00:05:38:18 - 00:06:19:11] KERRY I mean, there were so many little moments, but there was a moment in therapy when I was once again venting about how I didn't feel prioritized in my marriage. I was giving everything to the company that we were building. I didn't feel seen by my co-founders. I was a new mother and so feeling really depleted. And my therapist asked me, what does it feel like to be abandoned? And I felt so seen, because I was like, finally you see how everyone is abandoning me. And I said, it feels terrible for other people to be abandoning me. And she said, no, Kerry, what's it feel like to abandon yourself? [00:06:19:11 - 00:06:20:07] CANDACE Oh, yeah. [00:06:20:07 - 00:06:53:18] KERRY And I realized that I am not the victim. I have agency and I am in a lot of ways, minimizing my own flame by putting other people's needs first chronically. And if I found myself in like, if this is my reality, there's an opportunity for me to change how I'm operating in the world. And it may inconvenience people and it might hurt people's feelings. And also there may be liberation on the other side of it. [00:06:53:18 - 00:07:53:23] CANDACE Which it seems you found, I think one of the most beautiful parts of the book is like talking about the painful part and the exercise of actually reclaiming for yourself and also identifying yourself as being complicit in the role and finding out how you can not accept like the martyrdom. I've written about that too, where there is this part of society that rewards particularly women who are selfless, as you point out, the ones that white knuckle it and do everything on their own and really the only ones paying the price are us. So when you started, like you have this watershed moment or these moments in sequence with therapy, what's the first thing that you sort of like dug back up to be like, no, I'm gonna, that part of myself was buried, I'm going to capitalize on that, I'm gonna reclaim that. What was one of the things that you did, if you can remember in that process? [00:07:53:23 - 00:09:01:05] KERRY Joining a writing collective certainly was a huge part of this reclamation process. I had always been an avid writer as a kid. I love journaling. I do my morning pages every morning, but I'd really pushed aside my creative habits and passions. And then when I was in this writing group and every week I would sit down and write, I could not believe how honest, it was mainly women, how honest people were being about their life story on the page. And it really awakened something in me, which is, wow, what happens if every day I sit down and I just tell the truth about what it's like to be me? And it helped me find my voice again. And even writing this book was essentially an archeological dig of pulling up memories from my past or habits or patterns that I have and looking at them with my open palms and saying like, where does this belong? And who am I and what are my needs? And how do I want the rest of my story to unfold? [00:09:01:05 - 00:09:41:01] CANDACE And really taking ownership of that, it seems like really kind of an interesting process, especially for someone who was so creative. And just for the listeners, Kerry's not talking about a small little local business here in New York City. The business is Faherty, which is a clothing and lifestyle brand that if I can speak for you, Kerry, you co-founded with not only your husband but his twin brother. So this was an enormous undertaking. This wasn't just a mom and pop, not to disparage a mom and pop, of course, it's your life's work, but this was a gargantuan undertaking that your family was involved in. [00:09:41:01 - 00:10:15:18] KERRY Yes, it was all hands on deck. We all put our jobs to start it. There was no safety net. I couldn't rely on my husband if the business went under and vice versa. And we knew we needed to make it work at all costs. And like any startup, we did everything we could. We air beat and beat our apartment so we could afford rent. And then when that wasn't enough, we moved into our office space and we wore many different hats. And I'm so proud of what we accomplished. We have 94 stores now across the country. [00:10:15:18 - 00:10:16:19] CANDACE Amazing. [00:10:16:19 - 00:11:00:02] KERRY I know, over a hundred employees, 800 employees. And so it is a success story. And also this book really showcases the dynamics that happen and the costs of being a part of like a hungry, capitalistic beast. And so one of the reasons why I wrote this book is I had read so many books on being a founder and having a startup and what's it take to be a great CEO. And I just felt like so many people weren't telling the truth of what really was happening behind the scenes. And so this book does uncover some of the experiences for me personally of what that was like. The things and the losses, you know? [00:11:00:02 - 00:11:59:21] CANDACE And that's something as a reader that I think you did really well and some parts of the book were uncomfortable. So I can't even imagine like writing the words down and then knowing the people you were writing about, envisioning them reading those words as well. And I think like as sandwich generation members, you think about a lot of communication issues kind of bleed into our world family dynamics and like the sharing of obligations and responsibilities. And so here you are building this business. It's not like you can say, well, I'm out. It was just the three of you. And so trying to navigate the spousal communication, the brother-in-law, the mother-in-law, all of whom seem like amazingly wonderful people, but they're human. So tell us a little bit about what you maybe learned about communication and being honest about how you were feeling about it and not tiptoeing around those issues that were super complicated. Do you have advice for our listeners? [00:11:59:21 - 00:12:48:01] KERRY I mean, if you want to blow up your life and increase communication, write a book about what it's like to be you and watch what happens. There were real visceral painful responses in my family because of this book. I had people stop speaking to me. I have people who are very angry at me. And also I think it is a good example of how ongoing communication is really important. And when we're not having that communication, things build up and things that are unspoken that we think are quote unquote buried in the crevices of our emotions and our spirit and our body lead to volcanic reactions when things come to the surface. [00:12:48:01 - 00:13:10:19] CANDACE And so how do you, as a woman, and I think speaking for myself certainly and being the pleaser, how do you get past other people's anger with you, whether resolved or unresolved? What is your best advice and sort of metabolizing that and moving on and not owning that piece of it? [00:13:10:19 - 00:14:07:20] KERRY It is. And I can say this now being slightly on the other side, I wouldn't say I'm in it. It has been the biggest honor and privilege of my life to have people who I love close to me no longer like me and be angry at me. I have always been likable. I've always tried to be likable. And having to navigate people who are deeply upset at me but still have a tenderness and a resolution within myself has been like the best spiritual gift for me. It has been painful. There have been times when I'm sobbing in my bathtub, but there is a feeling of liberation that I had to work through, which is am I still worthy? And am I okay in myself, even if there are people around me who don't like me and are mad at me and have a narrative about me that I don't think is true, but they think is true. [00:14:07:20 - 00:14:36:02] CANDACE I mean, there must be something kind of like sort of amazing too, where you're sharing all of your flaws. You talked about a difficult time in your marriage and in that relationship. And so you're being honest and you're exposing maybe the parts of yourself or the things that you've said or done or thought and not the most proud of and they love you anyway. Right, right. I mean, that's really the beautiful part of it, right? [00:14:36:02 - 00:15:14:04] KERRY A hundred percent. And I've seen my marriage, a lot of people who write a book that like I wrote are no longer married. And my husband could have read this book and said, I don't wanna be married to you anymore. And I would have understood. And I didn't write this book to test the marriage, but I did hope that there was room for us to expand and for us to see each other more deeply. And for the readers who haven't read the book, the last chapter is Alex's, my husband's response to the book, being like, I cannot believe you are going to memorialize the hardest parts of our marriage for everyone to read. [00:15:14:04 - 00:15:56:02] CANDACE I have to say, Kerry, like I was like, I could not stop reading that part. And also, you know, knowing sort of who your family is, right, from the public perspective and you know, this perception of the unit of like, wow, what a great sort of thing that they've built with Faraday and like, you know, these two brothers and just this beautiful kind of image that was created in some ways without your consent, right? And then just like exposing that and then having Alex be so sure of himself and like sure of his love for you that it went out into the world. [00:15:56:02 - 00:16:41:20] KERRY Yeah, I mean, I think Alex is in a lot of ways a hero in this story, cause this has been very, very painful for him. And also we've had so much incredible healing because of it. But you know, he is sure with me, you know, Kerry, you spent 13 years ensuring that mine and my brother's dream came true in starting this brand. And it's also okay for me to support your dream of writing a book. And there are so many ways that we can hurt and betray each other in marriages. And I think the thing Alex and I are most interested in now is how can we heal from those? Like we will wound the people we love and also how then can we also heal with the people we love? And what are skills that we need to do in order to do that? [00:16:41:20 - 00:17:23:23] CANDACE Right, and I think, you know, one of the things you talked about, and we'll get to parenting in a second too, but you know, as parents and trying to raise good people that were setting forth in the world, the example that you and Alex have set for your two children to show A, how hard it is to have a meaningful, honest relationship that there can be forgiveness, there can be grace, and not that they understand the nitty gritty of everything that goes on in the marriage, nor should, you know, kids be privy to that, maybe at a young age. But I think like the process of working through that and doing the hard work, seeing the anger, seeing the forgiveness is really like, what greater lesson is that from a parenthood child? [00:17:23:23 - 00:17:48:07] KERRY I mean, that's my hope, is that we have really emulated that to our kids. I mean, there's still gonna be 100% therapy when there are teenagers. And also, I do think there's a level of like honesty and transparency we have with our kids that we might not have gotten to otherwise, that I hear sometimes when they echo things back to us, like, okay, we're doing okay, the kids are gonna be all right. [00:17:48:07 - 00:17:54:08] CANDACE Yeah, I love that line, the kids are all right. I say it all the time to my husband, even when it's just like, perfect. [00:17:55:16 - 00:18:47:16] CANDACE Maybe it's like more manifesting, but you know, one of the things that you said, which I love, you know, talking about claiming yourself is like, the more you said yes to what felt good and no to what didn't, the more creative you got and the more sort of ease you had in the world and the presence and the purpose that you found and the meaning in your everyday life. So that's like the opposite of what a lot of caregivers feel in the day to day, right? Because of obligations or what are perceived to be obligations. So how do you sort of impart that lesson and the way that you live to create those boundaries when there are things that are like have to versus you don't necessarily have to? Like walk us through that, what that looks like, where you can say no and set those boundaries. [00:18:47:16 - 00:19:52:17] KERRY So much of the process of learning what feels good and what doesn't feel good is the practice of mindfulness, which is how am I doing and how do I know and becoming really attuned to the micro moments of the day and then making small decisions. It can be anything. There are so many obligations we have that we can't get out of. We have jobs, we have roles, people depend on us. And also, how are we handling conflict? How are we holding our body? How are we self coping? When are we distracting ourselves or putting intoxicants in our body? There are so many little moments during the day where we can reframe the moment into something that feels better. How are we managing our thoughts? And so for me, the act of being selfish is really becoming acutely aware of how are things making me feel and choosing to not suffer more because of my own thoughts and rewiring my brain little by little by little to focus on the things that make me feel more okay. [00:19:52:17 - 00:20:24:20] CANDACE It totally makes sense. I think too, the way that you're framing it is so helpful because I think we think while we're in this in between, everything feels really big. And so taking a step back and looking at these micro issues or these micro decisions and cumulatively often they will provide you with where you need to be in the change that you're wanting to make. You do talk quite a bit about mindfulness in the book. And I think you're, are you a mindfulness coach, Kerry? [00:20:24:20 - 00:20:30:09] KERRY My career before starting Faherty Brand was being a full-time mindfulness coach. Yeah. [00:20:30:09 - 00:20:33:12] CANDACE Yes, yeah. And Yale trained, by the way, listeners. [00:20:33:12 - 00:20:36:12] KERRY Yale educated. I wasn't trained at mindfulness, Yale. [00:20:36:12 - 00:21:07:11] CANDACE Fair, fair, fair, but Yale educated. So props to that. So how much do you think mindfulness between the old Kerry before the sort of unburdening like why didn't mindfulness alone provide you with maybe the sort of infrastructure to not have led you here? Like what were the things that sort of stopped you from being fully present as a mindfulness coach having that training? [00:21:07:11 - 00:22:00:03] KERRY Well, I think there are so many things we do that we, it's like we learn things, but they're not integrated and they're not embodied. And so there's one thing to talk about things or go to therapy and learn things about boundaries, do a meditation practice, but at some point it has to be embodied and integrated. And so much of that is just trial and tribulations over and over and over again. And outside of mindfulness, there were so many other things I pursued that did help me re-enliven myself and reawaken parts of myself. And that was community and friendships and music and creativity, my beach walks, carving out time, even if it's just a short bath at night for myself. I'm 10% happier when I'm reading a book. I just know that instead of doom scrolling. So it's all these little decisions that [00:22:00:03 - 00:22:19:02] CANDACE slowly add up. And can really maybe change the course of your day and therefore the course of your life. Exactly. I love too that you talked about, sort of re-emerging in the creative world, that you've always been a creative, but when you're building the business, it felt like almost a luxury to go back to that. 100%. [00:22:19:02 - 00:22:29:01] KERRY It felt like a luxury is the perfect word, like indulgent. Heaven forbid I carve out time to write. It could be more productive other places. [00:22:29:01 - 00:23:06:18] CANDACE Right. But yeah, that really is what led you to this awakening and becoming the person maybe that you were meant to be, that you should be, that you feel happiest being. Exactly. I mean, it's really kind of amazing. So when you claim a decision for yourself or you're sort of in that process, is this something that you have to do like reclaiming every day? Are you sort of waking up and saying like, gosh, I've been pretty neglectful of myself? Or is this like an exercise that you recommend that people go through day in, day out to sort of reclaim and make sure they're being present? [00:23:06:18 - 00:23:46:19] KERRY I have to do it every day. I wake up and I have to ask myself, even now, it's like I'm balancing, my book is out in the world. So I'm doing a lot of book engagements and travel and book clubs. I'm still at Faraday and so how am I, and I'm still a mom. So how am I allocating my energy? And every day I have to wake up and say like, okay, if being a writer is important to me, what do I have to do today to ensure that that part of myself is recognized? And it doesn't mean writing for eight hours. I can still go to work, but it will change my commute. It will change if I open up my journal on the ferry ride and write some things down. It'll change whether I choose to write a poem, [00:23:47:21 - 00:23:53:22] KERRY on boring the Zoom call. Like there are so many ways I think we can access the parts of ourselves that lie dormant. [00:23:53:22 - 00:24:12:08] CANDACE Yeah, the way that you frame it, it makes it feel so much more accessible though, Keri, because it's like snackable things that you can do every day. So if you had a terrible day, the day before, really doing nothing for yourself and feeling really depleted, there's always the next day. I think we're so self punishing in that. I feel like, well, forget it then. [00:24:13:12 - 00:24:35:04] CANDACE But every day sort of committing to that. So let me ask you a question. When you started to like really put the work in and saying, like, I have to figure out where I am, where I begin, like you put yourself first in some ways, like for lack of a better term, who pushed back on you the hardest and who were you most surprised was cheering you on? [00:24:35:04 - 00:25:17:03] KERRY I was my biggest critic. I was like, oh man, I'm going upstate to write for two days. Like, is it okay? Are the kids going to be okay? Do I need to micromanage what's happening at home? So my inner critic was the most loud. Alex was like, great, go upstate. I got it, I'll be fine. And the kids saw me doing it as well. I mean, they certainly trolled me. They would be like, okay, you're missing this soccer game and or, you know, they keep track of things in a way that they don't with my husband, which is interesting, but it's okay. It's okay if I miss a soccer game sometimes because I know I'm going to come home and be a much more present animated, more fun mom. [00:25:17:03 - 00:25:35:07] CANDACE And enjoy that part of it. They'll also see that. So who were you most surprised by that you didn't think maybe would be cheering you on in this part of your journey? Where is there somebody where you'd be like, well, that was a surprise. Was it your own parents? Was it, I know you're very close with your siblings and in-law siblings. Good question. [00:25:35:07 - 00:25:36:19] KERRY I mean, I did feel [00:25:37:22 - 00:26:55:17] KERRY like people were like, oh, you're writing a book. Like I don't think people fully understood the level of isolation, honestly, and accountability it takes to actually write and finish a book. So people might be clapping for me, but most people, you know, most of my family, not one person really asked me like, what are you writing about? Really? Yeah, which is fascinating to me. So I don't know. And I think that's why when some of my family members got the book, they were so shocked by it. And I remember thinking, well, what did you think I was doing? I was working on this book for three years. Like if anyone wanted me to share any of it at any given time, I would have. But I do think it actually shows kind of how we value creative pursuits versus more capitalistic. And if you're not a creative, you know, you just don't really get what it takes. Even like think about music. Like we listen to our favorite musicians or our favorite songs, and there are hours and hours spent on the craft of what that is and what sound goes where. And we just, if you don't know, you don't know. And there's not even like, there's no hard feelings in it. I just think it's something that a lot of people just don't like understand. [00:26:55:17 - 00:27:10:11] CANDACE That's so true. I mean, I guess though, if it were my sister writing a book, I might say like, what's the deal? Like what's going on with that? And I know you're super close with your sister's spouse. And I think I'm correct. Your sister's spouse was the one who read the book? [00:27:10:11 - 00:27:27:03] KERRY Yeah, first, because he's a writer. Okay. And so I knew he could appreciate it. And I knew the feedback that he was gonna give me was going to be honest and blunt and maybe even brutal. And so I trusted his feedback. [00:27:27:03 - 00:27:37:07] CANDACE And what was his feedback initially? Like, holy cow, Kerry. A little bit. Was it? A little bit, yeah. And now I'm sure he's incredibly proud of you. [00:27:37:07 - 00:27:48:22] KERRY Yes, I mean, he was always proud. I think he was just like, whoa. Yeah. And some of my earlier reads, people said, are you, you know, this is gonna blow up your life. And they were right. [00:27:50:03 - 00:29:06:04] CANDACE I mean, listen, I think a lot of what we do to live an authentic life, sometimes it doesn't agree with the people that are in your life at the time. And, you know, sometimes I think there are sort of these crossroads moments where you can either live authentically and have everyone surrounding you and cheering you on or not. But it is always nice to have those people cheering you on. I think, you know, this is gonna sound like stalkerry, but I remember finishing your book and I was like, bowled over by it. And I sent you a message on Instagram and the only thing I could think of what to say to you was I'm rooting for you. And, you know, I really hope that the people who are in this time in their life can look to their left and right, whether it's, you know, a really close friend or an in-law, struggling, and really wanna root for them so that they can live authentically and honestly and be truth tellers like you have been. And I have a feeling, Keri, that in a lot of ways you're inspiring other people to be more truthful and to reclaim themselves in a way that maybe we didn't have the permission to do before having read your book. [00:29:06:04 - 00:29:25:23] KERRY I hope so. I mean, I think the irony is, you know, sometimes being quote unquote selfish is actually the biggest act of service that we can give other people. Because I think if all of us were living more out loud authentically, people around us would be like, oh, thank God, like me too. Maybe I'm worthy of pursuing that as well. [00:29:25:23 - 00:30:10:13] CANDACE Yeah, I mean, the truth of the matter is, is I started this podcast because I felt like I was failing being a parent and a caregiver and a lawyer. And I felt like if I felt this way, I have access to resources. I'm in, you know, a city where I have these resources. And if I feel like I'm not doing a good job, I can't imagine how other people must feel. I mean, part of it was like, also I thought I was speaking into the ether. So a little different for you in that I never really thought anyone was listening. You, you know, putting your book in print and having people review it and read it is much braver than maybe what I've done. But I'm such a great admirer of your beautiful gift of writing, your poems, by the way. Everybody should give Kerry a follow. [00:30:10:13 - 00:30:14:14] KERRY I'm launching my poetry sub-sack today. So perfect timing. [00:30:14:14 - 00:31:04:13] CANDACE Okay, so in the show notes, everyone, will be a link to Kerry's book, both the children's book and her amazing, impactful, honest, beautiful memoir, the sub-stack, Faraday, which by the way, I want to point out, is I think one of the few clothing brands that offers you an opportunity to purchase prior worn clothing, which I saw the video the other day to be reminded of that. It's just, you guys are just amazing. You are such an inspiration. Thank you so much for spending all of this time with me, Kerry, and- I'm so honored. Thank you. Love it. I love it. And like I said, we'll have all of Kerry's information in our show notes, and thanks from the bottom of my heart for being a truth teller, Kerry. Thank you. [00:31:06:04 - 00:31:07:18] (Upbeat Music) [00:31:09:12 - 00:31:53:07] CANDACE Hey survivors, be sure to follow and subscribe to the Sandwich Generation Survival Guide, wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode. We're back with new conversations on the first and third Tuesdays of every month. If you're finding value in the show, I'd be grateful if you left a five star review and shared it with other survivors navigating this season of life known as the Sandwich Generation. For resources and a full library of past episodes, visit sandwichgenerationlaw.com. Follow the conversation on Instagram, Facebook, and TikTok at the Sandwich Generation podcast. Until next time, take care of yourself while surviving and hopefully thriving in the Sandwich Generation. [00:31:53:07 - 00:31:56:06] (Upbeat Music)